Camden Blatchly, Center on Rural Innovation data analyst, explains the complex story behind rural and urban classifications and why place isn't so easily defined
Oh, we ain't got a barrel of money. Maybe we're ragged and funny, but we'll travel along singing a song side by side.
Camden:Right now, there's over 10 federal rural definitions, and they each have their own nuances. There are two that are most prominent, which are the non metro rural definition and the census rural definition. But there are pretty significant differences in the methods and also the characteristics of the populations that they define. So they tell very different stories about rural America depending on what you choose. One could be a more optimistic story than the other.
Camden:One of the things I appreciate having gone deep on rural definitions is essentially the arbitrariness and also the the fact that it's a continuum much more than a divide.
Ellen:That's Camden Blatchley, a data analyst with the Center for Rural Innovation, also known as CORI. CORI works to bolster rural economic prosperity across the country. Camden is talking about the complexities of defining rural and urban areas and the interconnectedness inherent in these definitions. The story usually told is the rural urban divide, but as he says, there are no rural and urban areas that are completely cut off from the other. CORI researched and wrote the Rural Aperture Project, which aims to bust myths and shift the narrative around how we understand racial diversity and economic opportunities in rural areas.
Ellen:CORI wants to foster more accurate storytelling about rural America and has conducted key analyses about the implications of using one rural definition versus another. Camden joined me to talk about CORI and the Rural Aperture Project and how his deep dive into rural definitions has led him to greater understanding about how rural urban and suburban America are interconnected.
Music (JimGriswold):When they've all had their quarrels and parted, we'll be the same as we started just to travel along, singing a song side by side.
Ellen:This is Ellen Wolter from the University of Minnesota Extension, and this is the Side by Side podcast. Camden, you are a data analyst with the Center for Rural Innovation. Can you tell me a little bit about the Center for Rural Innovation and the work that you do there?
Camden:The Center for Rural Innovation is a social enterprise. We're a nonprofit focused on advancing economic prosperity in rural America, specifically through innovation and entrepreneurship. We tackle that from many different angles, such as by working on, tech skilling programs. We have a a venture fund that invests in rural startups. We do broadband planning.
Camden:And in my capacity, I support the work of our research team, and I'm a member on our our mapping and data analytics team where we're focused on better understanding the the challenges in rural America and also working on proving economic development practices through research.
Ellen:So the work of the Rural Aperture Project comes from the Center for Rural Innovation and just something that we've been using a lot. And so really appreciate your analysis and the work that you have done on that front. Can you share for our listeners what the Rural Aperture Project is? And for our listeners, we'll be sure to share a link to it.
Camden:The Rural Aperture Project is a series of of data rich pieces that are focused on shifting the the narrative around racial and economic equity in rural places. And so it really comes from our experience working in rural places, understanding common misconceptions that people have about rural areas, and then tackling, those through data. So we've covered topics like choosing a rural definition and kind of the consequences of of which rural definition you choose, digging into the demographics of rural America, and also looking at the economic landscape of rural and kind of some misconceptions about its current composition.
Ellen:So let's start with the definitions of rural. I think some of the really great work of the rural aperture project is explaining for people that there are many, many definitions of rural and the and the consequences of that. So how how many definitions of rural are there?
Camden:You know, it's it's a question that I think changes by the day as new rural definitions are introduced and others exit. Right now, there's over 10 federal rural definitions, and they each have their own nuances. There are two that are sort of most prominent that we really focused on in our piece, which are the nonmetro rural definition and the census rural definition.
Ellen:And the nonmetro rural definition is the office of management management and budget, the OMB definition. And those are the definitions that are used most prominently, would you say, in policy making and research?
Camden:I would definitely say that to talk about a little bit of the differences between the two. They're both widely used. The one key difference is the geographic unit that they're defined at. So the on metro definition from OMB is a county level definition, whereas the census rural definition is a block level definition. And so a lot of times, people will use these definitions depending on the granularity of the data that they have, but there are pretty significant differences in sort of the methods and focus of the definition and also the characteristics of the populations that they define.
Ellen:Could you elaborate a little bit on on some of those consequences and implications for using one definition over another?
Camden:So the census definition is created using, population and housing density. So it's it's really a land use definition that's built up from the territory that it encompasses. It is much larger in terms of population. So there's 62,000,000 rural people according to the census rural definition, and it captures a lot of low density suburbs because it's focused more on land use. It's also the only definition that explicitly defines rural.
Camden:So a lot of rural definitions really are just urban definitions, and then rural is sort of anything that doesn't count as rural. They don't mention it. And it says this rural definition, when compared to the non metro definition, has a growing population. It's more economically prosperous. People have higher incomes.
Camden:So then in contrast to talk a little bit about the non metro definition, this one, as I mentioned, is a county definition, and it's really more focused on socioeconomic connectedness. So for instance, they take into account commuting patterns in the definition, and it's more focused of, like, a regional labor market concept and in terms of the composition of the rural population. According to this definition, there's about 46,000,000 rural people. It has much more stagnant population growth, less employment growth, lower incomes, more people experiencing poverty. So they tell very different stories about rural America depending on which you choose.
Camden:One could be a more optimistic story than the other.
Ellen:What do you think are the the implications and challenges of the fact that there are all these different rural definitions? And what does it say about the rural urban divide that we hear so much about if if we don't even really know how to define rural or or if we don't have a consistent definition for what rural is? And probably, in that way, right, urban is would be the same, right, in the converse. Yeah.
Camden:Definitely. Well, I think one of the things I appreciate having gone deep on rural definitions is the, essentially, the arbitrariness of how these definitions divide. And also then the fact that it's it's a continuum much more than a divide. And some rural definitions really highlight this and that they start from a highly dense urban city center and then do a continuum classification all the way out to open lands. So I think those are my two takeaways about the urban divide.
Camden:I think also the connectedness is inherent in a lot of these definitions. And so a place can be rural, but there are just these varying degrees of connectedness with urban centers. There's never, you know, places that are are purely cut off, but we're setting these guidelines about commuting flows that can determine whether a place is classified as rural or nonrural. And so that, again, just demonstrates the importance of the interconnectedness and also the continuous nature of these places. The last thing I'd mention is that rural definition is really changing.
Camden:So if you're thinking about a rural urban divide, what's interesting about that is that rural places are constantly becoming urban, and some urban places are actually becoming rural. So it's not the stagnant classification or divide. It's changing over time. Kind of shifts your your notion of the static nature of that divide when these places are quickly passing in between these categories.
Ellen:Yeah. And and a lot of those definitions, a lot of their rural definitions and urban definitions are based on, as you said, population density, land use. And I wonder if your team has thought about, are there better definitions of rural that should be used, different ways of classifying what a rural place or what are what an urban place is.
Camden:Definitely. So in our in our first piece on rural definitions, we do a lot of comparing and contrasting between the non metro census definition. And ultimately, we feel like the nonmetro definition is a better representation of the social and economic ties across small towns and open lands. So to talk more briefly about the differences between those two definitions, essentially, there's sort of one shared area that's agreed between the two, which is what we call open lands, essentially low density places that are distant from a metro area. But then the census rural definition includes metro fringe.
Camden:So these exurbs and suburbs that are low density but near to an urban center are included in the census rural definition. Whereas in the non metro definition, they include small towns, so places ranging in size from 5,000 to 50,000. That is then excluded because those are potentially high density places, but they're distant from larger metros. And so between these places, when you look at the the demographics and divide, metro fringe and small towns are are really diverging groups. And we really focus on regional centers, regional economies.
Camden:And so for that reason, we choose to use the non metro definition because the small towns areas are a better representation of of rural labor markets, and we don't wanna be capturing places that are more closely connected to major centers.
Ellen:So one of your other analyses with the rural aperture project is is really debunking, I think, common narrative about rural, which is that all of rural America is white, and that rural America is actually much more racially and ethnically diverse than than folks might might realize. So could you share a little bit about what you found in your in your analysis?
Camden:So this is a a misconception that is super common about rural America. What we found is that there is a lot of rich diversity in rural America, but it just doesn't present itself in the way that we're typically view diversity, which I think is using urban centers as a baseline for what diversity counts as. So depending on the rural definition you use, there's close to 11,000,000 or 14,000,000, people who identify as black, native Asian or Hispanic or Latino. And the way that diversity is spread around rural America is is very regional. So for instance, we have about 80% of the rural black population lives in the South.
Camden:And so one of the driving reasons I see as people holding the misconception about rural America being predominantly white is because they view it as this, you know, rural as this aggregated geography, which is huge. And so we really encourage people to take more of a regional view when looking at rural diversity. The second point about understanding rural diversity that I'd make is that it it manifests in a very different way than in cities where it's very uncommon or less likely that a single racial or ethnic group will dominate the composition of a city. But in rural places, that's much more likely. So across any single group, obviously, there are counties that are majority white, but it's also more common for a county to have very high concentrations of native or black or Hispanic or Latino residents.
Camden:And so it's a a shift away from thinking about this urban centric composition of diversity. It's better to take more of a regional view and look at these places at at a county or or wider level.
Ellen:Yeah. In in Minnesota, for example, there's the metro area and then there's what folks typically call Greater Minnesota. And if you look at the different the broader differences, Greater Minnesota is predominantly white, much more white than the metro area. But if you look at certain counties and certain cities, you'll see, for example, Worthington, Minnesota is about 60% BIPOC. So there are very you know, if you're really looking regionally or at different counties or cities, you'll see stark differences.
Ellen:And that's so important as we think about and I think this is what the work of the Rural Aperture Project is trying to do is really saying, well, let's really tell a more accurate story so that we can better connect and reach and support the people that are living in in rural America.
Camden:Yeah. Exactly. I think there's huge implications for telling that accurate story about your demographics of your area, especially when you're considering tailoring policy towards rural areas. Having a better understanding and an accurate understanding of of demographics is is pretty critical.
Ellen:We've talked a lot about some of the different ways of debunking the narratives that we hear about about rural America. You know, what implications do you think this has as we move forward and and hopefully think about a different way of supporting rural America, telling a different story about rural America, which has become certainly more of a conversation since the two thousand sixteen election. What are what are ways in which you hope these analyses move things forward a little bit?
Camden:I hope that it gives people a a framework to go beyond just the the top level census numbers when thinking about rural places because the categories are changing. So even in the census, the way that they are asking about racial and ethnic data is changing, and it's gonna have pretty significant implications for, specifically the rural Hispanic or Latino native population. And so I hope people are able to approach it with a bit more nuance and also understanding of how these survey formats are affecting our conception of of racial and ethnic diversity in rural, I think understanding the the data around both the economic reality of rural and also the racial and ethnic diversity of rural can affect the narratives that rural people themselves, you know, talk about or think when they are thinking about what's possible in rural places. So for instance, on the economic end, at Cory, we're really focused on innovation and entrepreneurship. And so shifting the narrative about misconceptions about rural being an agrarian place is very important to us because we think people have this sort of dated view of rural being very rural economy being primarily made up of manufacturing and agriculture jobs.
Camden:And so, which can kind of limit people's ideas about or aspirations for work that's at the cutting edge of innovation and entrepreneurship because they don't feel like that's possible in rural. So telling these new stories and highlighting new work in rural about both the diversity, but also the possibility is is really important to us. And I think it's hopefully a takeaway from the stories that there's a lot of nuance to this place, and there's also a lot of opportunity in it as well.
Ellen:And, Camden, we didn't we didn't touch on the economic analyses that you've done. You know, tell talk to me a little bit about what you have found in terms of the economy of of rural and and what that looks like and just the false narratives that we often hear, but what does it look like in reality?
Camden:Similar to racial and ethnic diversity in rural, the economy of rural is changing quite quickly. So, these things are not static. Rural continues to prove itself to be quite dynamic, both in terms of its demographic makeup, but also in terms of the economy. In our third story in the Rural Aperture Project, we talked about the legacy of manufacturing and agriculture and also natural resource extraction in rural and how that's shifting away. The the most notable takeaway is that that agriculture now represents close to 5% of the rural economy, which might surprise people and people's conceptions about rural areas.
Camden:One of the big takeaways as well from our our look at the rural economy is that it's struggled to shift to the rise of the knowledge economy since 1970, and it really lags the rest of the country by that regard.
Ellen:Do you feel as if the knowledge economy is where rural needs to head in order to sustain itself?
Camden:I think the way we consume, like, the rural economy at Cory is that there's been this profound shift happening. We break out the economy into three sort of sector sectors. The tradable goods sector, which would include things like agriculture and manufacturing, the tradable services sector, which would be the knowledge economy, and then local services, which would be your teachers, your baristas, etcetera. And, basically, in order for the local services sector to increase, it's dependent upon a corresponding increase in either the tradable goods or tradable services sector. And in the last fifty years, the tradable goods sector has decreased really markedly in rural areas, and we've also found that using incentives in order to increase tradable goods employment in rural areas haven't been very successful, which is why at Quarry, we're focusing a lot on tradable services because we see that as sort of an area of untapped potential for rural to focus more on twenty first century jobs, innovation, entrepreneurship, and also because that's one of the few economic development strategies that seems to be successful.
Ellen:So this podcast is all about the connections across rural and urban spaces and the complexity of that and the value that that brings and, of course, the conflict that is a part of that as well. In what way does that connection across rural and urban spaces play a role in terms of the new rural economy, and what value does connecting into an urban space provide for rural areas?
Camden:Yeah. I think it's becoming more and more valuable. I think I mean, in tradable goods, obviously, a tradable goods centric economy, you're really connected to urban areas, and we're really focused on maintaining that connection but shifting to these these new sectors. So for instance, one of our main focuses at CORI is expanding broadband access and broadband service rural areas, and that is directly tied to having further cohesion with urban areas because that's a main connection point and a sort of a critical connection point for this tradable services sector, which is growing and burgeoning.
Ellen:What are ways in which urban areas rely on rural areas? You know, you've mentioned that tradable goods are being reduced. So, are there what are ways in which urban areas rely on rural areas? Are they still relying on rural areas for food and energy? And, what does that connection look like, and might it look like in the future?
Camden:Yeah. I think certainly urban areas continue to rely on on rural areas. I think the you know, definitely in the case of energy, food, etcetera, what's shifted in our view is that those while those products are being supplied, in fact, I think if you look at the sheer quantity of agriculture manufacturing output from rural areas, it's probably increased while the amount of employment has actually decreased. So it's, you know, the productivity has has gone very high, and certainly urban areas are are really reliant. But it's evolving less less rural people.
Camden:And so we're optimistic and are seeing a lot of success in rural people contributing to urban areas in other ways, such as through entrepreneurship that can help enable people in urban markets as well. So it's not purely a good space exchange, but also making sure that, like, people in rurals who have really exciting ideas are being heard and that people in urban areas are able to, like, interact and and share these ideas so they're not siloed.
Ellen:Have you seen ways in which there are policies that foster that interaction, or have you seen programs or ways that people are trying to foster that really important interaction, right, that that is really valuable for all of our economies?
Camden:It's a great question. There's a lot of really incredible regional cooperation across rural areas. For instance, I used to live in along the Western Slope Of Colorado, which had really great cohesion amongst this large rural area. And I think, the strength in in numbers and being able to sort of consolidate the Western Slope can be a good way in order to create a sort of packaged hole. But I don't know too many places or too many specific programs about specific, like, urban to rural connection.
Ellen:I don't either, Camden. That's why I'm asking. That's why I'm stuck into doing this podcast. I think it's really important to be incorporating that framework and the connection of rural and urban spaces into all of the work that we And I feel like it's making the invisible visible in a way. And so I hope people listening take away from this that there's a lot more we can do to purposefully connect with each other, but also to lift up the ways in which we are already connected.
Ellen:And we just need to strengthen those connections because it'll be valuable for all of us in the end.
Camden:Definitely. So,
Ellen:one more question, Camden. Are there ways in which the analyses of the Rural Aperture Project have illuminated maybe more similarities across rural and urban, you know, ways in which that you're like, oh, you know, wait a minute, rural is not as different as urban, and urban is not as different as rural. And certainly, rural and urban are very different. But I think there are folks might be surprised to learn there are similarities too, and I'd be curious to see your perspective on that.
Camden:Yeah. I think that's definitely the case. Although I will say in our in our analysis, we really try to focus specifically on on rural. And so we don't have too many nonrural comparison points just because Sure. We're we're really trying to take rural in its uniqueness and and on its own terms and view that independently.
Camden:At the same time, urban means remains a very useful comparison point. And I think, what we find is that when people talk about urban, so often they're thinking of these superstar cities, cities like New York or LA, San Francisco, and that kind of captures our urban imagination. Whereas, when we do comparisons across more of a rural to urban spectrum, like starting at encore rural counties through micropolitan ones into small metros into to major cities, there's a lot of similarities between the challenges, specifically, like, the economic challenges I was just describing and some of these smaller and mid sized metro areas. And so there are a lot of similarities there that I think, you know, rural and urban, it gets a little bit muddied because we have some of these superstar cities that live large in our cultural imagination.
Ellen:Yeah. That's that's such a good point, Camden. And, you know, I I've gone around the state of Minnesota talking a lot about rural urban connections, and I was in a small town in Minnesota asking folks about their connection to urban areas. And kinda twenty minutes into the conversation, I realized that they were thinking about urban as their small town of 20,000 people where they'd come in from the farm and get coffee and groceries, and they were not thinking about the Minneapolis Metro. So it was just a learning of perception.
Camden:When I was I was living in Durango, Colorado, which refers to itself as a city, but according to our non metro the definition of rural that means, CORI, it's decided to be rural because it's, you know, more than three hours away from any nearby metro area. But to people in sort of some of the outlying towns, Durango was the city in that area. Yeah. And one thing else I just wanted to mention to give some stats to kind of the point I was making. Like, at Corie, we often look at the share of tech employment in rural areas.
Camden:And when you compare across the that spectrum I was talking about, the share of tech employment is also underrepresented in a lot of small and mid sized metros. Also, similarly, if you look at venture capital dollars, where the five or so superstar cities really dominate venture capital dollars. Rural gets, like, less than 1% of venture capital despite being somewhere between 1620% of the population. And I think that's also the case for small and mid sized metros, which definitely have underrepresented amounts of venture capital investment too.
Ellen:Does CORI, get involved in working with venture capital folks to support rural areas? Are you
Camden:So we have our CORI Innovation Fund, which invests in rural companies. And so that's our our direct contribution to trying to increase the amount of VC that's headed to rural places. Also, would mention that Cory hosts a really great pitch event for rural places. And so part of our work of getting more VC investment in rural is just raising awareness about the exciting companies and ideas that are in rural places.
Ellen:Well, thanks so much for being on today, Camden. We really appreciate your expertise and the work that CORI is doing. So thank you.
Camden:Yeah. Thanks for having me.
Ellen:Thank you for listening to Side by Side. We welcome your emails at sidebyside@umn.edu. Side by Side is a production of the University of Minnesota Extension and is written and hosted by me, Ellen Wolter. Special thanks to Jan Jackula, who designed our wonderful logo, and Jim Griswold, who sings and plays guitar in our opening and closing credits. You can find episodes of side by side wherever you get your podcasts.
Ellen:We'll be back next week with another episode. I'm Ellen Wolter, and this is Side by Side.
