Episode 10: Brigid Tuck explores what would happen if Minnesota's rural economy disappeared
Hi, Side by Side listeners. This is Ellen here. Before we start the show today, I wanted to let you know that we are winding down our 1st season in a few weeks and are beginning to plan for season 2. Thank you so much for your listens and shout outs during this 1st season. We've so appreciated your support and well wishes.
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Ellen Wolter:Thanks so much for listening. Now on to this week's episode.
Brigid Tuck:Oh, we ain't got a barrel of money. Maybe we're ragged and funny, but we'll travel along singing a song side by side.
Brigid Tuck:Just understanding the connections between the two, you know, it's pretty clear from the data and the evidence that we depend on each other. Right? We each have our own assets and our strengths that we bring into the equation. And so collaboration and investment in one part of the state does help other parts of the state be able to flourish. Urban and rural gets painted with that same brush.
Brigid Tuck:Right? Like, people wanna make us out to be very different when in reality,
Brigid Tuck:you know, we're all part of the ecosystem and all part of the economy and we all add to that vitality.
Ellen Wolter:That's Brigid Tuck, an economist and also my colleague at University of Minnesota Extension. She's talking about a study she conducted in collaboration with Minnesota Rural Partners in 2011. This study explored the economic interdependence between rural and urban areas in Minnesota, and it demonstrated how rural economies positively impact urban economies. Brigid joined me for a conversation to explain this study and the ways in which it demonstrates how rural and urban economies are connected and are impacted by the other, and how investments in changes in one area of the state can benefit the state as a whole. She talks about the limitations of rural and urban definitions in policy making and research and the ways in which research could be expanded to better understand rural and urban as an interdependent ecosystem.
Brigid Tuck:When they've all had their quarrels and parted, we'll be the same as we started just to travel along singing a song side by side.
Ellen Wolter:This is Ellen Wolter, and this is the Side by Side podcast.
Ellen Wolter:We are here today to talk about a study you did in 2011 that was commissioned by Minnesota Rural Partners and the US Department of Agriculture. And this study demonstrates how, our economies of rural and urban Minnesota are are in fact intertwined. So so happy to have you here.
Brigid Tuck:Yeah. Thanks for inviting me, Ellen.
Brigid Tuck:So I
Ellen Wolter:think we're just gonna start off today by talking a little bit about the study and how it came about. I really love how this study is framed, especially in that brief synopsis. And it says, what would happen to the state's economy if rural went away, which I think is a really great way to think about rural and urban interdependence. Right? This idea that these two entities, they really need each other just to buy and then support each other.
Ellen Wolter:So just to start us off, Brigid, tell me about how this study came about and what you set out to find.
Brigid Tuck:Yeah. Well, I'm really glad you you teed it up that way because I'm going to sound a lot like an economist today. It's my worldview, and you will see it on full display today. I think this project back, you know, looking back 10 years ago, this project really came down to an allocation of resources. So the question sort of out there in people's minds were, you know, we all pay taxes.
Brigid Tuck:Minnesota is a very large state geographically, and we're paying taxes and kind of wondering how are we benefiting from those taxes we pay. My property tax statement that I get from the county shows that I pay about $10 a year, to my local library, and it's it's written right on my my property tax statement. And I can be like, oh, yay. Right? Like, $10.
Brigid Tuck:I get to check out all the books I want. I can go there. It's this warm, inviting, welcoming space. $10 is a deal. I write a check to the state of Minnesota and send it out down to Saint Paul for that same $10 that maybe goes to support the library system as a whole and all the things that kind of back up my local library and it sort of feels like I'm putting my money into a void.
Brigid Tuck:Right? And so I think what was kinda happening in Minnesota is there's sort of this conversation around, you know, we're all paying taxes, but what benefits do we get when there's investment in urban areas? What benefits do we get when we make investments in rural areas? And I think what Minnesota Rural Partners and some of the other folks were trying to do or understand is really how does that relationship occur, how do we together when we're combined and we're kind of connected in an economy, how does making investments benefit us all on that economic perspective?
Ellen Wolter:So how did you set up the study? You know, for those who are really interested in methodology and of research, what methods did you use and how how was this set up?
Brigid Tuck:Yeah. I think that was kind of one of the interesting parts about this research. So we use what we call an input output model. Input output model is basically what they do is they trace the flow of goods and services throughout an economy. So on an individual economy level, whether it be, you know, a county or the state, we have a lot of information about what our economies look like.
Brigid Tuck:We have information on how many jobs there are. We have information on what business mix we have. We have information on the wages that get paid. And then from there, we can kinda estimate, you know, how much productivity and how much output are we generating. You know, basically, what is our GDP on those regional economic levels.
Brigid Tuck:So we have a lot of really good information about that, and we've been able to really study that and we use input output models to do that. What we didn't have a really good sense of or previous models before this kind of new, technique came along is how those economies interact with each other. So I knew a lot about the makeup of, let's say, Leeser County, my home county, I know a lot about the businesses, I know a lot about how they interact, and I can use those input output models then to sort of estimate if I change one part of the economy. So let's say I add jobs in a manufacturing sector, how does that affect other parts of the economy? I can use those relationships I already know and understand to predict what will happen.
Brigid Tuck:What we didn't have really good information or good ways of measuring is how those economies were interacting with each other. So a lot of good information about, say, we sort of county and a lot of good information about my neighboring county of Scott and Sibley, but I didn't have really good information about how Scott, Sibley, and Leesuerk were functioning within each with each other. I think Wilmer is a really great example of this. Like, when we looked at the data and the analysis, looking at turkey production. Right?
Brigid Tuck:There's a lot of turkey processing that happens at Wilmer, and we know about that and we can measure that. But there's a lot of turkey production that happens all the way around it. And so if you were to take turkey processing out of Wilmer, you can see these impacts that would happen back on the on the surrounding counties, but our models didn't really account for that. So there was a new feature added called multi regional input output analysis that allowed us then to look at a change in one economy and how that affects these other satellite or interacting economies. So for the first time, we are able to say, okay, if we have a change in the Twin Cities metro area, what happens in Greater Minnesota?
Brigid Tuck:And then we also had the opportunity to do the same thing in reverse. If we have a change in Greater Minnesota, what's the impact on our urban areas?
Ellen Wolter:So what did you find, Brigid? What were what were some of the the key findings?
Brigid Tuck:Yeah. So we looked at 2 industries in particular. We focused on agribusiness and we focused on manufacturing. And we really did find that that linkage between the 2. Right?
Brigid Tuck:When we have activities happening in one part of the state, it really does affect other parts of the state. I think it was really interesting to look at kind of the the two examples that we used were really helpful because we looked at, like, say for agribusiness, obviously, we're growing things in Greater Minnesota. We're producing things, and then we're kind of it was we call value adding to it. Right? Producing changing it into some other product to move it on to the final consumer.
Brigid Tuck:So when we look at kind of the impact of, say, if you've got an agribusiness company that's headquartered in the Twin Cities area in the in the urban area, the impacts back out into Greater Minnesota, you know, include a lot of that supply chain. Right? So there's a lot of what we call indirect effects back on the supply chain because we're producing those things and then, you know, using them for other purposes. And we see a lot of the support sort of type jobs in the Twin Cities. So you might see kinda the the legal department or the accounting department, that kind of thing maybe more headquartered in the in the metro area.
Brigid Tuck:And then when we looked at manufacturing, we saw something that was striking, which is that manufacturing in general, a lot of our manufacturers, if you take out food, they use supplies and stuff that are imported from other areas. So a lot of the impact back in both the urban and the rural areas was more associated with the wages that were getting spent. So people had, you know, their fairly high paying jobs, particularly in in rural communities and in urban areas. And so that those jobs were helping to generate a lot of economic activity because people had money to, you know, pay for their mortgage and go to the grocery store and all the things that we do in our day to day activities that support our individual communities.
Ellen Wolter:What do you think is important about about this study and its findings?
Brigid Tuck:Well, I think that piece about, just understanding the connections between the two. You know, it's pretty clear from the data and the evidence that we depend on each other. Right? And that independently, we really wouldn't be able be a strong, vibrant community. We each have our own assets and our strengths that we bring into the equation.
Brigid Tuck:And so, collaboration and investment in one part of the state does help other parts of the state be able to flourish.
Ellen Wolter:And this research was conducted, I believe, about 10 years ago
Brigid Tuck:That's
Ellen Wolter:in 2011. So a little bit more than 10 years ago. What do you think has changed, if anything? And and do you think this finding would be replicated today?
Brigid Tuck:I say, generally speaking, I think we would get very similar results. I think sort of the the general underpinnings of the economy are are similar in a lot of ways. I think so to go economists on you here, economists talk about, you know, capital and labor. Right? Capital, I think, in a lot of ways is is sort of similar, but the labor piece is probably where we would see some change and would be interesting to kind of look at.
Brigid Tuck:For exam you know, kind of on a 2 two pieces. We've had a workforce shortage for a number of years. So kind of understanding how companies are responding to that and how that has brought changes into kind of the production model. But then also COVID, you know, upended some of our historical kind of migration patterns about who's moving to what part and live where they're living and how they're choosing to be part of their community. And I don't think we've sort of totally figured that piece of things out yet.
Brigid Tuck:Certainly, as people are maybe some urban people have chosen rural communities, rural people have maybe chosen urban communities following the pandemic. So how is that affecting things?
Ellen Wolter:Are you aware of other research similar to this that has been done in other areas or, you know, other states or other regions that demonstrate similar or different findings?
Brigid Tuck:I'm not too steeped in the data or this kind of research. The one thing I want to always caution people about is that demographers and geographers are always changing definitions. So you often hear the statement that rural America is the population is declining, it's shrinking, you know, kind of these dire warnings about that. But in reality, when a community grows or a metro area grows out, those ring counties can get reclassified as urban counties. So some of the fastest growing population counties have now been are now considered urban, when they would have been considered in the rural definition, you know, 15, 20, 30 years ago.
Brigid Tuck:So I think you just have to always sort of be sure you're looking at the fine print, if you will, with this research about what's defined as rural, what's defined as urban, and really understanding how they did that before you really look at the findings. In this case, I'm I think we considered the 7 county metro area and I've sort of stuck with that definition in my work, But there is, I believe, now an 11 or 12 county metro region as well that people sometimes use. So
Ellen Wolter:Yeah. It's such an important point, and we'll actually be doing an episode entirely on that and looking at all the different rural definitions. You know, as you know, there are, you know, over a dozen different federal definitions of what rule is and they overlap and intersect. And so we'll be talking exactly about that. What exactly is rule and and how do we actually define that?
Ellen Wolter:And then even that people have different perceptions even of what of what rural is and what that looks like depending on on where you're from. And so I think that's a really important point for all of us to consider as we're reading narratives about rural and looking at research about rural and, you know, what exactly is this rural that we're talking about? So thanks for bringing that up. Yeah. Yeah.
Ellen Wolter:Other additional research do you think would enhance our understanding of of how rural and urban economies are interdependent? You know, some of the things I think about are, you know, these products are moving from rural areas into urban areas and ways in which there is demand for these products, ways in which people rely on on rural areas for for food, for example. But what are some things that come to mind for you?
Brigid Tuck:I touched on it a little bit earlier, but this idea of workforce. Right? Like, how are I think that's the wild card in, you know, the biggest change in our economy. Again, just the the workforce shortage and kind of our communities and how they're dealing with those different challenges and kinda understanding how workforce chooses to move. I mean, even if you think about people commuting in to, you know, urban areas, maybe choosing to live in a rural community and then commuting in, or certainly with more remote work availability, you know, maybe 2 2 days a week, it's worth it to drive the hour in, you know, into your office and you could be at home 3 days a week.
Brigid Tuck:Right? Whereas 5 days might have felt like too much. So just kinda understanding how those those dynamics are playing out in terms of our workforce, I think would be really interesting. I also think it'd be interesting to kinda look at some of the other sectors. So we focus on agribusiness and we focused on manufacturing, but I think health care could be a really interesting example.
Brigid Tuck:You know, if you kinda look at changes in the last 10 years or so on the health care sector, kind of that move towards that health care system where you might receive kinda your primary and your initial care in your community. But then if you have need a little bit more of a specialist, you might go to like a regional center like a a Brainerd or a Mankato for that more specialized care. And then if you really, have a more in-depth need, you might end up in Minneapolis or Rochester for a more even specialized approach to your care. So I think kind of that sense of how things are shifting and how that that pathway for patients, that'd be that'd be an interesting one to study and to really think about.
Ellen Wolter:Yeah. That's a great example, Brigid. And then for folks who might be in, you know, areas of the state where hospitals are closing or where there are fewer obstetrics options, you know, what does that mean for them? And how how are they now having to really rely on more urban areas like Brainerd or Mankato to to find resources or the care that they need. Well, Brigid, we are gonna move on to, some some questions that really help us to get to know our guests.
Ellen Wolter:And so for these episodes, we just wanna learn a little bit more about or for this section, we just want to learn a little bit more about your personal connection to rural and urban and what that means for you. And the reason for that is I grew up in very rural spaces and have lived in very urban spaces as an adult. And so for me, this connection across rural and urban, I I see it very clearly because I'm constantly interacting between these two spaces. And now with my work at Extension, I'm I'm even more so constantly interacting between these two spaces. And so just wanting to understand a little bit about what this looks like for you because I do think that there's often this perception that we are really only re rural or we're only urban, but we really cross these spaces a lot.
Ellen Wolter:I think more than people kinda think about or or realize, or at least are portrayed in in our narrative. So what is this idea of rural urban interdependence? You know, what does that mean to you?
Brigid Tuck:Yeah. I think one year for for our work team, we held our meetings in North Minneapolis. And, of course, North Minneapolis, you know, there are these negative stereotypes of North Minneapolis. Right? And then there are these negative stereotypes of Greater Minnesota.
Brigid Tuck:And I remember one of our leaders at the time kinda talking about, like, her statement basically was like 2 areas that both are having someone else write their narrative. And that really stuck with me. Like, we're both communities, like, if when I walked around North Minneapolis, there's just so many really amazing cool things going on. Yard art, sidewalk art, community gardens. I mean, all these fabulous investments, and you could see the pride in the community from the people that live in the community.
Brigid Tuck:And I feel that's the same for for rural Minnesota. Like, we have a lot of pride in our community. There's a lot of really good things. We're alive and well despite the rumors that we are not. So when I think about that urban rural connection, it's really about understanding each other and listening to each other.
Brigid Tuck:And and really, I think we we all share core values. We're human beings. Right? And so it's just about appreciating those values and appreciating each other for the roles that we play that I think is for me, I get frustrated with that.
Ellen Wolter:Yep. Yep.
Brigid Tuck:So Yeah.
Ellen Wolter:What do you think we get wrong about or what do you think generally folks get wrong about rural spaces? What do you think some of the misconceptions are?
Brigid Tuck:Oh, yeah. Well and, again, these are the same ones that sometimes Irvin gets Yeah. Okay. We're lazy. We're boring.
Brigid Tuck:We don't do anything fun. We all go to bed at 9 o'clock apparently out here. We're all drying of drugs and, you know, overdoses. All our buildings are empty. The tumbleweed is blowing through town, you know, and none of those things are true.
Brigid Tuck:Right? Like, we were very vibrant communities. But I think a lot of ways urban and rural gets painted with that same brush. Right? Like, people wanna make us out to be very different
Brigid Tuck:when in reality, you know, we're all part of the ecosystem and all part of the economy and we all add to that vitality.
Ellen Wolter:Yeah. Yeah. And we all have a lot more similarities, I think, than are often portrayed. Yeah. Yeah.
Ellen Wolter:What do you think folks get wrong about urban spaces?
Brigid Tuck:I think probably the other one if you're out in Greater Minnesota talking to people is is crime. Right? Like, somehow, that all the urban areas is all crime.
Ellen Wolter:Whenever I go into Minneapolis, lovely, Yeah. And not to say that there isn't an issue or crime might be up, but I think it's definitely overblown for sure.
Brigid Tuck:Yeah. So I would say that's probably the one that gets most talked about in rural spaces.
Ellen Wolter:Yep. I think that's true.
Ellen Wolter:Well, what
Ellen Wolter:do you think some are some are the some of the ways are that we can move forward to be better connected? You know, what are some of the things that that you're doing or some of the things that, you know, others are doing, to really help better connect rural and urban, spaces?
Brigid Tuck:Yeah. So I do a lot of talking about the economy. That's part of my job, right, is to just really focus on that. So I get the opportunity to present in front of a lot of groups. And so part of that is just helping people understand, you know, what does your economy look like and kind of how does your economy fit into the bigger picture?
Brigid Tuck:I know, we have a a pretty cool slide that shows, like, the number of jobs by industry in Greater Minnesota versus the metro area. And, you know, everyone thinks that it's so different. And then you look at the chart and you're like, it's pretty much exactly this. Mhmm. Right?
Brigid Tuck:Like, the the drivers of our economy are sort of the same. Maybe the types of jobs look a little different depending on what region you're in, but, you know, professional business services drives a lot of economic activity sort of no matter where you are in Minnesota. So some of that looks very similar even though we want to think of it very differently. So I think just continuing to talk to communities and really help them understand their economy and then help them understand how those pieces connect together is probably where I'm working the most.
Ellen Wolter:Brigid, would you be able to share that slide with me? We can then share that out with
Ellen Wolter:folks so they can see that. Yeah. Well, Bridged, thank you so much for
Ellen Wolter:joining us today. It's been a great conversation and and really appreciate your time.
Brigid Tuck:Yeah. Thank you, Ellen.
Ellen Wolter:Thank you for listening to Side by Side. We welcome your emails at sidebyside@umn.edu. Side by Side is a production of the University of Minnesota Extension, and is written and hosted by me, Ellen Wolter. Nancy Rosenbaum is our senior producer. Special thanks to Jan Jekala, who designed our wonderful logo, and Jim Griswold, who sings and plays guitar in our opening and closing credits.
Brigid Tuck:It really doesn't matter at all.
Ellen Wolter:You can find episodes of Side by Side wherever you get your podcasts. We'll be back next week with another episode. I'm Ellen Walter, and this is Side by Side.
Brigid Tuck:Singing a song,
Music (Jim Griswold):side by side.
